The Widdershins

Are Women Human? Part Umpteen

Posted on: January 3, 2019

The talk about fetal personhood bills, and especially Lauren Kelley’s point about the activists turning a health issue into a criminal one, got me thinking. So much so that I actually wrote her some feedback, which now, I guess, I’m going to turn into an open letter of feedback. (There’s a whole series in the NYTimes, a newspaper I’m terminally annoyed with, so I have most of this secondhand from public twitter feeds.)

Pregnancy is a health issue if women are people.

But they really can’t be people to those pushing fetal personhood. If women were actual humans in their minds, the pro-fetus crowd would know that personhood does not mean a guaranteed right to erase women.

After all, if an adult man is about to die for lack of a kidney transplant, we don’t send tissue-typing trucks to roam the streets until a match is found for him and the required spare kidney is extracted. Yet it’s a parallel case. A person (everyone agrees an adult man is a person) will die unless he can use another person’s kidney. If you wanted an exactly parallel case, the healthy person would be drafted to dialyse his blood for nine months. We don’t do that either.

That’s for the simple reason that the counterparty really is a person in that example. In the case of pregnancy, it’s necessarily a woman which somehow makes everything different.

But it isn’t. The only thing that’s different is that plenty of people are not used to thinking of women as actual human beings. They’re brood mares first, humans, maybe, second.

The real assumptions behind all this are important because they determine the ground on which you argue. Remember the old Roe v Wade days and the anti-choicers calling themselves “pro-life”? The size of the joke on us is becoming clearer by the day. At the time too few wanted to hear that accepting bogus terminology ceded the high ground before we’d even begun to fight. Now here we are, pleading for our lives, not our rights.

We need to be as clear as we can about the real terms of the argument. This isn’t really about anyone’s health. If it was, we’d have had those tissue-typing vans driving around ever since organ transplantation was feasible. This isn’t even about whether fetuses are persons. It’s about whether women are persons.

93 Responses to "Are Women Human? Part Umpteen"

Excellent quixote! Remember that old saying about “if men could get pregnant…”.

BBL to read the post, Quixote. Check out this picture of Gowdy. HaHa!

😆 😆 😆 !

@3: Hey Gowdy…GTFO and don’t come back.


Great post Q!! Yes, pro-life is great framing. Rethugs are excellent at marketing their ideas. We on the liberal side are often terrible at it, and we underestimate its power as well.

I call them “pro-death” because their policies lead to high infant and maternal mortality. We are at a shamefully high level in this country. This am goes back,to,your point that women are truly not considered people.

@1: … abortion would be a sacrament.

@7: Tru dat Sue.

Fine post, quixote!

I call them “forced labor” proponents. Either that or PLUBs (pro-life until birth; after which they can be caged, starved, or denied healthcare).

@1 and @7, absolutely. Though that makes me think of the jokes re: “If men could menstruate…” ….”they’d brag about how much and how long.”

@1 “if men could get pregnant…” ‘There would be an abortion clinic on every corner’.

Thought I posted this downstairs but it later let me know the thread was closed.
My son sent me this and it sure makes me think of Hillary and how she inspired all of us.

India’s 385-mile-long ‘women’s wall’
Millions of people reportedly formed a human chain across India’s southern state of Kerala to support women’s right to enter one of the country’s holiest sites.

Trey in a hanging pink tie and it looks like he has jammie bottoms on…

Down the steps, walk on over to the unemployment line you turd.

“Men have asked distractedly, ‘[What] on earth do women want?’ I do not know that women, as women, want anything in particular, but as human beings they want, my good men, what you want yourselves.”

Are Women Human?Dorothy L. Sayers.

@13, “unemployement line” That’s a government handout! As is that fat pension and heath-care-coverage continuation you have.

@12, how cool!

This guy can give Trey a run for his money.

Recently, I saw a poll on evangelical Trump supporters. Just over 50% of women thought Roe v. Wade should be overturned. The kicker? For the men, it was 37%. Go figure.

@18, oh, so their mistresses can get abortions, but no one else can.

We all share in Nancy’s delight at the gavel!

No unemployment line for Gowdy. He’ll be doing “White Collar Defense & Government Investigations in his new gig. Check out his quote. (don’t bother clicking)

GREENVILLE, S.C. (AP) — Former 4th District Rep. Trey Gowdy is joining a South Carolina law firm now that his Congressional term is over.

Nelson, Mullins, Riley & Scarborough said Thursday in a news release that Gowdy is joining their staff and will work in Greenville and Washington, D.C. Gowdy did not seek re-election to the seat he held for eight years.

Gowdy will be part of the firm’s White Collar Defense & Government Investigations team. He’ll focus on internal and government investigations and corporate compliance.

“There are scores and scores of investigations that are not criminal in nature,” he said. “They’re never going to lead to criminal charges, but you still want to find out what happened.”

Also, Tea Partier David Brat who ousted Eric Cantor, then lost his election to a Dem this year, has a new gig. Falwell Jr has tapped him as dean of Liberty University’s business school. THEY NEVER GO AWAY!!!

Wow!! Poll numbers! I was waiting for the millionaires billionaires schtick. Tone deaf or braindead?

Did y’all see Nancy P almost missed voting for herself? I guess after hearing Pelosi, Pelosi, Pelosi she didn’t catch it. Love her grandkids and Swalwell in the background jostling his baby.

Skinheads without (visible) tattoos.

@28, LOLOL! Tea Pain’s a hoot.

Quixote, excellent post. Yes, the rethugs and evangelicals are great at manipulating words to convince people that ridiculous ideas are true. We just got back from seeing “Vice” and there was a scene where they do that to change public opinion about attacking Iraq.

GAgal @26, yes, I really enjoyed watching the House festivities this morning. Almost gives me hope again.

@25, I loathe that asshole.

Luna @20, oh yeah.

@24, great tweet!

Shadowfax @12, Love that, thanks for sharing!

Oh my goodness!

For Fredster:

This is lovely:

@35 It was lovely… until you read the comments. Here we go again.

Bah. Missed so much of the excellent comments by being, what’s the phrase?, unavoidably detained?

That business about more women who buy into the patriarchy being anti-abortion than men? It makes upside-down sense, I think. If the patriarchy is giving you your status in life, you want it maintained. Forced pregnancy, rape, economic deprivation (“the man should be the breadwinner”) are its pillars. You’ll justify them with the usual “good woman,” “she deserved it,” “good wife” shtick. Men don’t feel their dependence on the system as acutely, which is kind of ironic but that’s how being at the top of the tree works, so they’re freer to be pro-abortion for their mistresses, as Luna says.


Her little jack-in-the box grand daughter was so excited and cute to help her grandma vote. Nancy was probably counting the votes and forgot that she could vote for herself on this one.

The Speakership passing to Pelosi really was a wonderful moment.

But I think we have to really work on remembering that the only thing the House really controls is oversight and the budget. That’s far from nothing, but Pelosi, good as she is, can’t set the country right so long as that blob and his Administration — and McConnell — are trashing the joint. She can throw out a lifeline. We’re not safe on board the rescue ship until all the garbage is thrown out and the worst of it is in jail.

GAgal @36: Never read the comments….

I am a big fan of Swalwell, btw.

Now that Nancy is getting all the well earned attention, it would be fantastic if she and Diane Feinstein got together and helped encourage our Hillary back into the political ring.

I know, the young, inexperienced women want Hillary to stay home and bake cookies. I cry bullshit!!!!

And as for the topic itself: yes, like Fredster and others noted, the good old saying — men, abortion, sacrament — really said it all.

Shadow @41, the only thing that restrains me from jumping up and down and screaming for a Hillary run: what a thing to ask of her.To put herself through all that crap again? Just for the sake of the planet? Seems like a lot 😦

28 GAgal

OMG, this is so darn funny…

Trump keeps pickin’ guys with no hair to challenge his hay stack. Today’s press briefin’ looked like a feather duster and a carton of eggs.

33 Annie

He is so cute and puts his mean on just like us humans.

His mustache reminds me of John Bolton.


He is so darn cute, has fun with the door stopper until he gets bopped on the nose by it, then gets mad at it…and barks.

I never read the comments. A$$holes always want the attention.

Q 43

Hillary was born to lead. I hate having her sidelined and I am sure she hates it too.
Look at the shit RBG, Nancy and Diane have and are still taking because they didn’t let anyone push them out.
As long as I am alive, I will continue to want Hillary to get back into the political fight.

I am happy for Nancy, honestly. I will not forget that she picked Obama over Hillary…she owes Hillary some hardcore, massive support.

Comments — there must be bots in many basements clicking through their menu of misogynist insults to plug in right after any woman Dem says something. Intelligent female minds trigger them.

First thing we do, we kill all the Republicans.

While federal workers go without pay, senior Trump administration officials are poised to get $10,000 raises

Cabinet secretaries, for example, would be entitled to a jump in annual salary from $199,700 to $210,700. Deputy secretaries would be entitled to a raise from $179,700 to $189,600. Others affected are under secretaries, deputy directors and other top administrators.

The pay of Pence is scheduled to rise from $230,700 to $243,500.

49 Luna

I agree and I refuse to give their nasty thoughts one second of my attention.

I see them like spoiled children that throw a shitfit on the floor of the grocery store when irresponsible mommy doesn’t give them candy.

Very OT, but I found this hilarious! Rich boy whines that coffee isn’t expensive enough.

Italy invented coffee culture. Now it’s a coffee time capsule.

Even in the poshest parts of Rome, an espresso — “un caffè” — sells for 1 euro, or a little more than a dollar.

As a relative newcomer to Italy, I wasn’t ready to proclaim that the country that invented and perfected the espresso machine has been doing it all wrong. But already I’d been wondering why the modern coffee era, with its new brewing techniques and specialty beans, seemed to have largely passed Italy by.

The small group of Italian rebels who are trying to promote coffee as an artisanal product say their mission is difficult in a country with the deeply held expectation that coffee be affordable for all.

Shadow: “I am happy for Nancy, honestly. I will not forget that she picked Obama over Hillary…she owes Hillary some hardcore, massive support.”

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Pelosi has done numerous things during her long tenure that make me give her the side-eye.

That said, not as many as any male politician I can think of. And if she makes up for what I see as lapses by bringing the gavel down on as much crap as she can, more power to her!

Clinton is and remains the most accomplished statesman of our time. If she *wanted* to run again … /*dreams beautiful dream*/

As far as I’m concerned, her closest runner-up is Stacey Abrams for smarts and talent.

But for some reason, people are all on about Beto (who’s fine, not in her league yet) …


Beto is the latest, dream prom date that is only shiny and new until someone more exciting comes along.

Maybe that’s a little to harsh, but I don’t see him with any experience and being President shouldn’t be a starter job.

Reminds me of those that crushed on Obama and ignored the woman with all the brains and answers.

The Dump is more than sundowning. He’s night-falling.

And, I’m sorry to be harsh, but AOC is apparently a certifiable idiot. Here’s today’s prominent headline on Marketwatch:

“Ocasio-Cortez suggests individual tax rates as high as 70%”

Brilliant. Voters love hearing about paying more taxes before you’ve accomplished anything.

She’s toast. Toast that can dance. Big whoop.

Not that I disagree about the top rate being 65%-70%. I think that’s exactly right. And a few years ago I saw that Krugman thought so too. That’s all fine. It’s also true we need to turn off fossil fuels and go full carbon-neutral renewables. BUT YOU DON’T SAY THAT YOUR SECOND DAY IN OFFICE. People don’t hear you. All they know is some nobody told them to pay more money and be uncomfortable for no benefit they can see.

She could be using her considerable charm to educate people on the issues. But nooooo.

How stupid can you get? (I guess we’re going to find out 😦 )

@34: annie, I’ve seen that look before the doggo gives at about 13 sec. She/he is saying “Okay…you started this”. LOL

@34, so cute!

@54, 55, re: Beto. Yes. Grrrrrr.

Reminds me of those that crushed on Obama and ignored the woman with all the brains and answers.

Tax rates — The US was doing quite well back in the good old days when top rates were 70% and even 90%. Now the top rate is 37%.

You’re right that AOC and others shouldn’t be giving away headlines on Dems Want to Raise Your Taxes. They’d do better presenting a scenario of fair tax rates for middle-class workers. Also do something about deductions — deductions are no use unless you can individually itemize which most normal people can’t. Instead of talking about taxes, emphasize “investing” in infrastructure, good schools, clean water, slowing climate change, etc.

Sigh. I’ll hope there are enough pragmatists in the current House to knock sense into the newbies who make the perfect the enemy of the good. AOC did vote for Pelosi after all, so maybe she’s (slowly) getting some sense.

Luna @62: Exactly.

I laughed out loud in a room by myself at the thought of whatshisface being “on his hinges” 😆 !

And, I’m sorry to be harsh, but AOC is apparently a certifiable idiot. Here’s today’s prominent headline on Marketwatch:

“Ocasio-Cortez suggests individual tax rates as high as 70%”

Brilliant. Voters love hearing about paying more taxes before you’ve accomplished anything.

She’s toast. Toast that can dance. Big whoop.

Glad I’m not the only one that sees Ocasio-Cortez as someone that needs to grow up and start acting like woman that is part of the US congress instead of the queen of the frat party.

Yeah, steal from the rich to push Burnout’s agenda…that’s gonna be her ticket right out of Congress.

Pigs and unicorns do fly…

Gack, gotta stop posting while the typos are sneaking outta my keyboard.


I was thinking about everyone that thinks Hillary shouldn’t run again, because:

– She is too old.
When did men’s age ever stop them from running…Bernie and Joe want to run again and they are older than our girl. Hillary doesn’t work in the coal mines nor in construction, so being in early seventies is no reason not to run. How old are Diane, and Nancy?

– Nobody likes her.
She won more votes than Obama in the primary, Bernie, Joe, Dump, both George’s and everyone except Obama…because every person of color came out and voted for HIM.

– Some younger woman should run instead.
Because a younger woman would be easier to manipulate or would be more of a wet dream for straight, old, Viagra men???

She has already ‘LOST’ twice and no one runs a third time.
– She actually WON against Dump and she was battling Russia, fraud voting, the FBI and Dump corruption.
– She also won against Obama, and WE all KNOW it. We don’t forget.
– She is a woman. Women all know that you can’t give up the fight just because men are nasty to you. We would never move forward unless we had strong women that “would never give up”. “If you hear the dogs, keep running.”

What are the other reasons that she shouldn’t run?

Okay, I lied. 😉

DYB @56, LOL!

Quixote @57,58, ugh. What is she doing? Surely she’s smarter than that.

Luna @61, yes, reminds me of the big national Obama crush also.

I am riveted to Joy Reid and Nancy Pelosi on MSNBC right now.

@67, well, there are of course NO good reasons why she shouldn’t run again and win (again).

I would love for her to run with Stacey Abrams, Kamala Harris, Jay Inslee Sherrod Brown, or Adam Schiff as VP. Hillary would have one term, fix up 90% of what Dump ruined, and then turn it over to her VP.

Sigh. Dreaming again.

The reason Hillary can’t run again is because the media won’t let her. They’ve failed to own up to what they did and they never will.

Hi GAgal! We’re sisters in Debbie Downerdom!

Seriously, I have a depressing (in the clinical sense) feeling you’re right. They’d have to own up to their own sexism and misogyny, and what fun is that? Worse yet, it’s just truth: not clickworthy!

But I am feeling some progress from how fast people, including a few male reporters like Eric Boehlert, are jumping on some of the crap such as “likability.”

Luna @71, I would also love that. I wouldn’t blame her though if she decides to pass.

@73 This is how bad it is… I read not clickworthy as not dickworthy. Pretty much sums it up.

@73: And what about the women who have ragged on HRC? I especially think of #drunkmika. There she was yesterday bragging on about women in politics, the large number of women in this Congress, and even threw in an Eleanor Roosevelt quote I believe (or did she just read that someone else said it?). Anyway, she was barely tolerant of Hillary in 2016 and then could.not.wait. to start dogging her after the election.

What Madeline Albright said.

I watched most of the Pelosi townhall with Joy. She did a major fuck up with the young woman’s question about Black Lives Matters. Just like Bernie. It’s all economics…. There was her chance to talk about criminal justice reform and she blew it with ‘all lives matter’ bullshit. Then repeated it. Really disappointed with her answer.

Yes, Fredster @76. To me it’s Exhibit A in how human women are. Most will grab for any speck of status no matter at what cost, just like men.

Oh dear god, the best, the absolute BEST designation for the Dump, better even than Agent Orange. Courtesy Kathryn Warner: the Dicktater.

Hear, hear!

@78: quixote I get what you’re saying. It’s just that no mention of what HRC has done to advance the causes of and for women while she-Mika was talking about the large number of women in this Congress and such.

Another one who slips the knife into Hillary’s back: Andrea Mitchell.

@77 – I didn’t like that answer either. Kept thinking of what our girl would have said: “Yes.” Some moms in the Movement went around the country campaigning with her.

I do not think she is like Bernie though. She regularly references social justice and economic justice being intertwined. Bernie doesn’t get that.

Now the trade war makes sense. It was all so Putin could move into our position with China.

I feel sick to my stomach. Republicans, when is it enough? Shame on you all!!

@86, Donny boy, you’ve been played. Or rather, your base has, and the rest of us suffer too.

@84, well d’oh. Wonder if Trump ” who last month signed an executive order stopping pay raises for regular federal employees” will un-do his wage freeze exec order whenever the government reopens. Nah.

@88, meant to say officially campaigning in Iowa.

Oh, and screw Iowa and its undemocratic caucuses.

@86 Not just NE Georgia but all of Georgia is covered up in poultry growing houses and processing plants. They voted for him by 75% around here. Oh well, you get what ya’ vote for.

To Fredster: Damn Cowboys!

Luna @82 & MB @86, I LOVE those tweets!

GAgal @90, mindblowing.

Quixote, Love the Dicktater!

I am also sick at how Hillary is getting sidelined. I’m also sick of hearing Beto, Beto everywhere, when I hadn’t even heard of him until last Fall.


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