The Widdershins

Cui Bono?

Posted on: August 9, 2009

Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain!

Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain!

The lovely and talented Taggles recently sent me a very interesting press release from the ACLU. It seems that a Florida court deprived Samantha Burton, a pregnant woman, of her right to determine her own medical care, and the ACLU is a tad exercised about that fact.

Here is what happened. Ms. Burton went to a Tallahassee hospital to get treatment for a difficult pregnancy. Once she got there, someone (possibly her attending physician) informed the State of Florida that an uppity wimminz in her 25th week of pregnancy might (gasp!) be considering an abortion. The State, horrified at this exercise of free will by a private citizen with scary ladyparts, went to the Circuit Court of Leon County to implore that this travesty of justice be stopped. (snark)

The Court decided that to “protect the interests of her unborn child,” Ms. Burton did not have the right to refuse any medical care that might extend the life of her child. Ms. Burton was ordered to stay in the hospital for the duration of her pregnancy – up to 15 weeks – in order to keep her from doing anything that might harm the child.

According to the ACLU’s amicus (“friend of the Court”) brief, when Ms. Burton sensibly requested to change hospitals:

The court further ordered that “Ms. Burton’s request to change hospitals is denied as such a change is not in the child’s best interest at this time.” (Id. at 3.) The court approved the State’s wholesale control over Ms. Burton’s liberty and medical care during pregnancy on the erroneous legal premise that the “ultimate welfare” of the fetus is the “controlling factor” and was sufficient to override her constitutional rights to liberty, privacy, and autonomy. (Id. at 1.) After at least three days of this state-compelled confinement and management of Ms.Burton’s pregnancy, doctors performed an emergency cesarean section on Ms. Burton and discovered that her fetus had already died in utero. Thereafter, she was released from the hospital. (Appellant’s Ex. E, at 1; Ex. F, at 1.)

The brief continued:

As addressed fully below, first, the court erred as a matter of law by failing to give any real consideration to the liberty and privacy rights of Ms. Burton and instead applying what amounted to a “best interest of the fetus” standard. (emphasis mine) Such an approach turns on its head well-established standards protecting the right of every adult to make private decisions about their own medical care. Second, the court erred in equating the asserted interest in protecting fetal life to the State’s “parens patriae authority to ensure that children receive medical treatment which is necessary for the preservation of their life and health,” (see Appellant’s Ex. D, at 1), and in holding that the interest in fetal life justified confining Ms. Burton to a hospital bed and overriding her right to refuse medical treatment. Finally, applying the correct constitutional analysis, and looking to appropriate medical standards of care, it is evident that the State did not demonstrate the type of compelling interest necessary to justify the extraordinary use of involuntary confinement and forced medical treatment in this case.

I have said before that the fundiegelicals are not pro-life. They are pro-UNBORN life. They consciously and maliciously elevate the potential life of the fetus (which, ironically and sadly in this case, was already dead) over the life of the mother. Why? Because the mother is nothing, an empty vessel. She has no rights and no function except to serve at Man’s Pleasure. The Bible tells us so, somewhere. Where? Don’t bother me with such minutiae. I’m sure Jesus said it right after He said “Homosexuality is a sin” and “Abortion is murder.” A-MEN!

What is really going on here, I believe, is an escalation of the fundiegelical agenda, which is, simply, to keep women from controlling their bodies by choosing whether or not to have children. It is extremely telling that the ACLU has gotten involved in this matter. They know, just as we do, that the right to reproductive freedom is a civil right, dying a little more every day. They know that the fundiegelicals have been emboldened by the murder of Dr. Tiller and may ultimately decide that violence is the best way to stop the “murder of millions of unborn children.” I applaud the ACLU, as always, for staying true to its principles, and fighting against this latest encroachment on women’s rights as American citizens.

Yes, the fundiegelicals are fanatical extremists, truly the sworn enemy of all women and LGBT; but I can’t help asking one question: Cui Bono?

If abortion and contraception were banned forever, as the fundies desire, would it be good, or bad for them? I believe it would be bad. Plenty of them have had abortions and use contraception; in fact, Sarah Palin herself said she considered aborting Trig because he had Downs Syndrome. What a luxury, to consider something like that and decide against it – a luxury she and her like-minded extremists would deny other women. Do any of the fundiegelicals really want that luxury to be taken from them? Of course not. Oh, sure, I suppose the long-awaited Rapture could happen if they succeed in turning Murka into a Christian theocracy; but more likely, overpopulation would complete America’s slide into third-world country status. So what’s really going on here?

The corporatocracy is using the fundiegelicals to ensure the status quo.

Think about it. If the brains of the religious right were not constantly focused on non-political matters like abortion and same-sex marriage, those same brains might be focused on politics and what’s really going on in America. As activist types, they might be working to change the status quo to favor Main Street, not Wall Street. They might even join us murdering abortionists (snark) to march for the ERA or demand that their representatives do something about the environment, health care and ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that, my dears, will never do! Heavens no!

So, while it is very important to recognize the extremely unhealthy influence the fundiegelicals are having on our country, we should also remember that keeping women barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen ultimately benefits only the oligarchy/corporatocracy. It is they who are pulling the strings, and I believe that every public figure who is spouting the nonsense that makes the fundies quiver with delight is, knowingly or unknowingly, a tool of the ruling classes.

Isn’t it grand that when we’re screaming “Screw the Fundies!” (h/t La-t-da), we’re also striking back at the corporatocracy? And isn’t it lovely that when we get the ERA ratified, we will be paralyzing the fundiegelical agenda, as well as bringing the corporatocracy to its knees by empowering women to take their true places as equal members of society?

Ken y’hi ratzon. So may it be. And in the end, may it be We The People who benefit.

90 Responses to "Cui Bono?"

Sigh. I hope my point wasn’t too obscure here. I was just hoping to underline that the Fundies, as pernicious and hateful as they are, are not really in charge; the corporations are. The fundies are just willing tools of the fat cats who pull their purse strings.

No, it wasn’t. I do get it. However, this is Florida, where every court (except thankfully the Florida Supremes) held fast to the notion that the state had the right to stand in loco parentis to Terry Schiavo. I am unsurprised that they tried it again.

Mad, why is my comment in moderation (again)? Let me goooooooooooo!!! (I’m sooooooooo claustrophobic.)

I dunno!! Stupid Spammy. Let me go release you!

Maybe Spammy is a secret Florida fundie?

Mad, Spammie is at it again.

You know, chatblu, Terri Schiavo was the first thing that came to my mind when I heard about this!

I have to say, though, I think these efforts in the courts are all coordinated. I wonder how the State found out about this woman’s situation? Freaking Fundies are everywhere!

OMG, I figured it out – it’s Fl@rida! Spammy hates that word. How bizarre!

I wonder if they did a C-section without the patient’s consent?

I am sitting here reading Justice Blackmun’s analysis of Roe. The “trimester” framework for the Roe decision is rather vague on how far the State may go in deciding what a woman’s options are in the third trimester. He says “Only in the third trimester was the state’s interest in protecting the potential life of the fetus great enough to warrant severe restrictions on abortion, and even then, states must permit abortions to save a woman’s life.”

I suspect, with the composition of the SC today, if this case or one similar were to be appealed to the court, the ruling would not be favorable for women.

SHV, the way that this is written, they would not require the mother’s consent to do so. It will be interesting to see what the Fl@rida court of appeals does with the ACLU’s brief. I would not be surprised for them to side with the lower court as they are mainly Jeb Bush appointees. Fortunately, many of the Fl@rida supremes date back to Lawton Chiles.

SHV – I suspect that is exactly what the fundiegelicals are hoping. With their constant assualt on state legislatures and the federal courts, they must believe that at least one of these cases will end up making it to the SC.

Even if Sotomayor ruled in favor of women, there is no guarantee that Anthony Kennedy would retain his role as a sometime swing vote. He is Catholic, after all, which may influence his views on abortion.

The only good thing here is that the SC has been too afraid to hear some cases relating to Roe v. Wade in the past. This one may be too controversial for them to touch.

madamab, I don’t know about this particular case, but it’s very possible that the hospital administrators sought a judicial decision on this one.

There was a spate of similar cases in the early ’80s (hmmm, just as Reagan was empowering the fundie precursors of today’s bunch). In most cases, when the woman or her family refused their recommended treatment, the hospital itself went to court. To avoid future liability, they said, in case the child was born with problems. Which is really just another liaison between fundies and the corporatocracy.

Valhalla, that is quite possible. Most hospitals have a working relationship with the courts where children are concerned, by=ut 25 weeks is still second trimester and I’m unclear why the hospital sought legal intervention.

SHV – I suspect that is exactly what the fundiegelicals are hoping. With their constant assualt on state legislatures and the federal courts, they must believe that at least one of these cases will end up making it to the SC.
It’s a pretty sad state of affairs when it might be a huge strategic error to appeal a miscarriage of justice to the Supreme Court.

Okay, here it is: Although one would believe that, if a pregnancy is 40 weeks in length and you were to divide it into 3, you would come wp with 13.3 weeks per trimester, you would be incorrect per Fl@rida common practice. A friend who works in OB/GYN tells me that most practitioners consider the latest that they will perform a second trimester ab is 19 weeks and 1 day, as the fetus is viable at 20 weeks. Therefore, the hospital would have standing to decline the procedure, but I am at a loss as to how the hell they could stop her from leaving, as that should trigger a complaint of false imprisonment.

chatblu — that’s why they went to court, I imagine. She and her family may not have understood that she could leave (before the court order), since it’s not as if the hospital would have made it clear to her. False imprisonment is tricky. If they didn’t restrain her in any way, but just pressured her to believe she had to stay, then probably a false imprisonment claim wouldn’t fly.

And even if they did restrain her, the subsequent court order would probably insulate them from any serious liability as a practical matter (although not as a legal-technical matter).

SHV – But it’s only wimminz. How could there be a miscarriage of justice?


Chatblu – My understanding of the case is that the State and the Circuit Court prevented her from either leaving or changing hospitals. As she was quite ill and eventually needed a c-section, I doubt there was much she could do about it. Even if her family tried to take her out of the hospital, the police would be within their rights to bring her back, since she was disobeying a court order, wouldn’t they?

as the fetus is viable at 20 weeks.
I haven’t reviewed the latest stats but under 23 weeks survival is essentially 0, if there are “survivals” they are “case reports”….At 23-24 weeks survival is 10-20% with a large percentage of those having significant disabilities. The stats continue to improve with >gestational age and fetal weight. Also outcomes are highly variable depending on the neonatal care available in a given location.

Mad, that is correct. If a hospital has obtained a court order, they must stay. However, I think that if the ACLU’s case reaches the Fla supreme court and this is overturned, that there will be one hell of a lawsuit, unless they declared the mother to be gravely ill and unstable for transfer. But, as I read what you have written, it sounds as though the hospital itself was far less concerned with her life than that of the fetus, and that is contrary to usual practice.

From what I understand, SHV, another avenue of the fundiegelicals’ attacks on women is to continue to redefine fetal viability. Thus, they can make it “murder” to abort a fetus at earlier and earlier times during a woman’s pregnancy.

Chatblu – Indeed, that is the basis of the ACLU’s case.

More from the ACLU from the link in the post:

According to the ACLU’s brief, “[I]f the decision below stands, it invites State requests for court intervention in nearly all aspects of pregnant women’s behavior and medical judgments. In turn, some women will be discouraged from coming to a hospital for pregnancy care if they know that any disagreement may lead to forced medical treatment. Such a result does not advance maternal and fetal health by any measure and is not constitutionally permissible.”

The Fundies are trying to set a legal precedent for the Court to override the wishes of the mother in order to “protect the best interests of” the fetus.

Absolute f*cking lunatics.

As of now, the visbility line is brightly drawn at 20 weeks, and to be honest, they do not do all that well, even in level III nurseries with all of the bells and whistles. I think in order for it to recede further, there will need to be medical evidence of survival at an earlier gestation.

Whoops! Make that viability, nor visbility.

Chatblu – that is somewhat comforting. Thank you!

Now that I think of it, 20 weeks has been the gold standard for as long as I recall (and I graduated from college in 1970). There really hasn’t been any backing up in almost 40 years, despite all of the advances in perinatal care and neonatal ICUsm

From what I understand, SHV, another avenue of the fundiegelicals’ attacks on women is to continue to redefine fetal viability.
That is exactly what is going on…Apparently “they” are trying to get the gestational age for a “legal abortion” in the UK changed from 24 weeks to 20 weeks.

“Survival Rates For Infants Born Before 24 Weeks’ Gestation In U.K. Unchanged, Study Finds”
For the study, David Field, professor of neonatal medicine at the University of Leicester, and colleagues compared survival rates during two time periods among infants born between 22 and 26 weeks’ gestation in 16 hospitals in England’s Trent region. About 500 infants were born in both the 1994 to 1999 time period and the 2000 to 2005 period (BBC News, 5/9). The study found that there was no improvement in survival between the two periods for infants born at 23 weeks’ gestation, which remained at 18%. Of the 150 infants born at 22 weeks’ gestation, none survived, the study found…..

Aha! I can always count on our SHV to come up with a link! Thank you so much – I did a little googling, but am not as skilled as you.

OT – Violet Socks braves HuffPoop, finds that Obama and his corrupt corporatist cronies have accepted a deal from Big Pharma that specifically excludes price negotiations; i.e., Medicare Part D with its “doughnut hole” will still stand no matter what “health care reform” is passed. Awesome!

The White House said on Friday that drug price negotiations did not specifically come up in talks with Big Pharma. Because such negotiations would take the deal past $80 billion, however, they’re off limits, as is reimportation of cheaper drugs from Canada.

White House spokesman Reid Cherlin confirmed that despite Thursday’s uncertainty the deal outlined in the New York Times still stands.

Of course, as the White House acknowledges, senators are free to push for drug-price negotiations or reimportation, but they may have to do so without administration support and, certainly, in the face of Big Pharma opposition.

I don’t care what Pat says, I f*cking hate Barack Obama. And I think he richly deserves it.

BTW…The revision of the UK abortion law to reduce the gestational age failed to pass in 2008. From my brief reading of the UK laws, abortion is legal up to term but after 24 weeks there are more restrictions in place. The usual reasons for abortion after 24 weeks are “life and health” and severe fetal abnormality.

Hmmm…the corporatocracy is not as strong in the UK and neither are the fundies. Consequently, teh wimminz have more rights.

How interesting!

this case, was already dead

Wait a minute!! The woman had a dead baby in utero???

I have to admit I’m groggy. Back was killing me and I broke down and took a lortab and I’m not used to them. But did I read that right?

I don’t care what Pat says, I f*cking hate Barack Obama. And I think he richly deserves it.
Again it’s all about him and f*ck the American people. He made the deal for the $150 million in advertising money that Big Pharma will spend to get Obama care passed. It’s a “little” difficult to get the Pharm Industry numbers but last night I added up the 2008 revenues for the top 12 Parm. companies. It works out to be ~$480 billion per year. (That is not the total for all Drug companies, which is more)…….The “huge deal” that Obama negotiated, works out to be less than 1.5% of revenues per year. Another metric for why the Pharm. lobbyist Billy Tauzin was happy as a pig in sh*t is the fact that pharm. profits, for the first six months after Medicare Part D went effect, increased by $8 billion.

Obama has also cut a deal with the American Hospital Association and two other Hospital groups. For the “promise” to reduce Hospital costs by $100-150(?) billion over ten years, the govt won’t lower Hospital payments. The fine print is that any cost reduction won’t begin until most of the un-insured are covered by “obama-care”. If that happens at all, it won’t be until after 2016.

Obama doesn’t care what is passed, as long as something can be signed in a Rose Garden Ceremony. The Dem. leadership has sold out again. There only objective is to pass anything labeled as “Health Reform” so that Obama won’t be embarrassed by a “failure”.

The House Progressive, Black, and Hispanic caucuses are threatening a “no” vote but Pelosis is ridiculing their position. They will get political cover with the HR 676 vote and then fall in line.

Yes, Fredster – the woman’s baby had already died. Isn’t that awful?


Obama doesn’t care what is passed, as long as something can be signed in a Rose Garden Ceremony. The Dem. leadership has sold out again. There only objective is to pass anything labeled as “Health Reform” so that Obama won’t be embarrassed by a “failure”.

The House Progressive, Black, and Hispanic caucuses are threatening a “no” vote but Pelosis is ridiculing their position. They will get political cover with the HR 676 vote and then fall in line.


But you know, if we all just go to town halls and make farting noises and scream racial epithets at our Representatives, then we will get HR 676 passed! By not asking for it!

Clearly, the health care reform bill needs light, not heat. However, I’ve just got to say that our congressfolk are not doing themselves any favors attempting to refute the right-wing talking points when they admit that they are not familiar with the bill. (“No, no, it’s not that. I don’t know what it says, but it doesn’t say that!” WTF???

then we will get HR 676 passed!
The “fix” has been in since the “New Deal”. Last year health lobbyists spent $480 million in bribes and this year it’s $1.4 million per day. The Obama campaign received >$19 million for the Health Insurance Industry, HMOs, etc.

In reality, it make little difference what the HR passes. Basically whatever POS legislation that can get 60 Senate votes is what will be the controlling legislation in the HR-Senate conference bill.

Ha! Very well-said, Chatblu. Read the GD bill and then get back to us!

I just may have to move to France soon. I am so tired of what passes for government in this country I could just spit!

It’s interesting looking at where and to what effect the bribes are having. The Republicans and the blue Dogs get all of the attention but their position isn’t moved that much by bribes. It the middle and left Dems that are being bought off. An example is Ron Wyden who is left of center in the Senate Dem caucus but is a big supporter of “insurance co controlled” obama-care. Sen Wyden, at my last look had received $1.4 million from the “health” industry.

Here is a graph showing amount of bribe vs opposition to “public option”.

Yes, Fredster – the woman’s baby had already died. Isn’t that awful?

Then why the hell were they even concerned? They should have given her whatever meds necessary for her to deliver it or take it c-section.

(sigh) Oh well this is Florida. I have a friend whose daughter lives in Ft. Meyers. She has had “woman” problems for such a long time and she basically just wants the doc to do a hysterectomy on her and the docs refuse because she is not over 35 and she “might” want to have children!! I mean, this woman cannot even have a normal cycle and they think she might want to get pregnant! Good Lord…

Oh hell, didn’t close the italic.

My comment is in moderation if someone can release it please. If you also want to close the italic that’s fine too. Should have closed after **is** in 2nd para.

I dislike unqualified, corrupt, narcissitic, unprincipled, lying, smarmy politicians intensely. BZero is what we intuited,FROM DAY ONE – just worse than what we could have imagined. The details of how he is rewarding his backers is horrific. Mad – your quote regarding this poor woman in Fl@rida and the one regarding Big Pharm, physically pains me. Each day it seems we see more confirmation of what a billion $ backed “prez” will do for them. Their – corporate – plan is etched in stone – the puppet’s actions will not deviate. Pretty dag gum evil.

The woman above was treated as a non human being – a vessel only, she could have died and I want to see this court case play out. It is so cleary wrong imo.

clearly – should not comment when angry but I’m always angry these days, sigh

It’s okay Boo. I totally agree.

Fredster, I released you and edited your italics tag.

I’ve got to go out, folks. Have a great afternoon!


P.S. If you write the word “Fl@rida” without substituting a letter, Spammy will eat your comment. Still haven’t figured out why!

Oh this is so lovely. Melancon is my congressman in LA and a blue dog, but read the comments from Tauzin of PHRMA and his relationship to the LA 3rd district.

I’ll be calling Charlie tomorrow alright! Grrrr….

The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, the drug industry lobby known as PhRMA, has run television ads in New Orleans, Baton Rouge and Lafayette thanking Rep. Charlie Melancon, D-Napoleonville, for being “a leader, steadfast in his support for innovative biomedical research.”

The ad urges viewers to “call Congressman Melancon. Tell him thanks for protecting the hopes of patients everywhere and the promise of biomedical research.” As Billy Tauzin, the president and CEO of PhRMA wrote in his most recent edition of “Straight Talk From Billy Tauzin, ” cutting-edge medicines known as biologics “offer our brightest hopes for finding new cures and treatments” but are threatened by “proposals designed to force innovators to give up exclusive use of their data within five years.” PhRMA spokesman Ken Johnson said Melancon is one of those members who understands that “if we’re going to cure cancer in our lifetime, as President (Barack) Obama has called for, we are not going to do it with a $4 generic drug.” That said, the politics of the ad run are interesting. Tauzin, a former Democrat-turned Republican, preceded Melancon representing Lousiana’s 3rd Congressional District, a seat that Melancon won by defeating Tauzin’s son in a close and bitter election. On the other hand, Melancon is now considering challenging Sen. David Vitter, R-La., who in July won approval of an amendment to the Homeland Security Appropriations Bill that would allow Americans to legally import prescription drugs from Canada into the United States either in person or over the Internet, something PhRMA strongly opposes.

A further aside, Billy Tauzin was one of the Repubs who put together the medicare Part D mess. Billy got his thanks when he retired and he got the job at Pharma. 👿


maybe spammy has a dislike for the “Sunshine” state.

My comment went into moderation becuz of having two links so:

off topic but: Anyone looking for real estate in NOLA? Nicholas Cage has 2 properties for sale. One uptown in the Garden District and the French Quarter property. I love the Fr. Qtr place and it’s haunted. Uptown home

French Quarter property: French Quarter property

Tauzin was a founding “blue dog” before he switched parties.,8599,1913057,00.html

A further aside, Billy Tauzin was one of the Repubs who put together the medicare Part D mess. Billy got his thanks when he retired and he got the job at Pharma.
Tauzin is legally bound by House ethics rules not to make

with the intent to influence, any communication to or appearance before any officer or employee of any department, agency, court, or court-martial of the United States or the District of Columbia, on behalf of any other person (except the United States or the District of Columbia) in connection with a particular matter … in which the person participated personally and substantially as such officer or employee, and … which involved a specific party or specific parties at the time of such participation.

Yet Tauzin, six years prior to securing the White House’s promise not to let the government negotiate Medicare drug prices, was instrumental in writing the 2003 bill that created a Medicare drug benefit … but barred the government from negotiating drug prices! (At the time, Tauzin was chairman of the House energy and commerce committee.) Unlike some other House ethics rules, the prohibition against lobbying on anything “in which the person participated personally and substantially” is supposed to be permanent. It would seem not to be worth the paper it’s written on.

medicare Part D mess……
Six months after Medicare part D went into effect, Big Pharma made an additional $8 billion in profits.

Tauzin is legally bound by House ethics rules not to make


Tauzin is legally bound by House ethics rules not to make

That was the conclusion of that piece:

“It would seem not to be worth the paper it’s written on.”

Tauzin, a former Democrat-turned Republican, preceded Melancon representing Lousiana’s 3rd Congressional District, a seat that Melancon won by defeating Tauzin’s son in a close and bitter election

Billy was damned and determined his son was going to take over his seat in the House. In the primary I think he came in 3rd out of 3 and the general was between Melancon and a Repub. It even pissed off the state GOP that Billy was trying to handle the seat as if it was his own personal fiefdom. Billy the turd went back to his day job as a lobbyist with AT&T/Bellsouth.

We southerners might be dumb but we ain’t that dumb!!

I know SHV, I was agreeing with you.

The article at the Slate link specifically states BZero’s health plan is the opposite of Hillary’s. It also states not only is this statement “not a dimes worth of difference” false but something like $156 billion dollars is the pay back to Pharm.

Thanks for another great link SHV.

Imagine how many prescription drugs could be bought with that much money? It boggles the mind how these corporate cheats can get away with this stuff. Oh wait, they “paid” for the privilege through hefty contributions to congress critters eager to remain slurping at the proverbial trough. What was I thinking?

Imagine how lives saved and made better. The public human toll is high.

they “paid” for the privilege through hefty contributions to congress critters eager to remain slurping at the proverbial trough.
True but the Congress could have been beaten into a real Health are reform if that is what Obama wanted. The Obama made noises about wanting a Public Option but his only real demand for the legislation was that it wouldn’t be or become a single-payer system. The Public Option was the transitional step toward a single-payer system. That had to be killed.

Obama’s position now is no different than when he was an IL State Sen. He was a sponsor of legislation to “reform” the IL health system. He was also the “go to guy” for the Insurance Industry and Obama introduced the amendments that gutted the legislation. Nothing has changed.

I had better quit…my poor typing has gotten worse.

Imagine how many prescription drugs could be bought with that much money?

With a potential of several hundred billions of dollars, imagine how much health care for the uninsured you could buy?

Hey Barack Obama, Tauzin and Melancon:

The Public Option was the transitional step toward a single-payer system

You knew it was all over when they switched from “health care reform” to “health insurance reform”.

(sigh) Didn’t our moms and dads tell us this when we were young?

OT: Just got back from “Julie & Julia.”

More Julia, less Julie would have been a whole lot better.


I am once again embarrassed to Live in florida….

sorry this is all I can say on the matter the above says it so much better….

pls release me from moderation I have been spaminated!

Fuzzy – did you say the word “Fl0rida”? Spammy hates that word!

Fuzzy – at least Fl0rida has you, so it can’t be that bad!

thanks but those UF student have me crazy they come in so unprepared to deal with the simple act of starting utility service -I only have 2 more weeks

so what should I call it Land of fruit and Anita Bryant?

LOL Fuzzy! Fundies and retired Jewish people!

I just throw a symbol in Fl@rida and all is well!

MB, I’m in spam. LOL

Don’t say “Fl0rida” La-t-da! LOL

I’ll getcha out!

La-t-da – I don’t see you in moderation.

you can’t take La-t-da in moderation….. kinda like chocolate moderation is just not an option.😆 😉

I said it three times to screw with you. Spammy must have gotten really pissed at me and just threw me out altogether.

Great thread by the way. I just got a chance to read it. Much food for thought on that piece. I look forward to putting together a thread piece soon.


Hey, that didn’t work. I was saying “Hey” invalid.


He is a re-post from another (conservative) blog..where I try to give a simple explanation about health care and polarization around political labels…another commenter complimented me by think that I was a girl!!!

People seem to apply political labels to suit their own purposes. I look at political philosophy as to where the balance is placed for the “value” of the individual vs the “corporation” and the State. As an example, the Health Care debate. Since the New Deal, the fundamental division always begins with the question: “Is health care a right or a privilege?” That was argued quite openly during the debate over Medicare and it remains the fundamental question, even if it is more “hidden” now.

If you believe that Health Care is a privilege, then our current model based on “insurance” makes perfect sense. The Insurance system basically places a value on “risk” if you are likely to need the insurance, it costs more and if you really need it, you can’t get it. The Insurance companies aren’t in the health care business, they are in the money making business; which is their duty for their stock-holders.

If you think that Americans have a right to Health Care, then there has to be a different model. The model isn’t based on political philosophy but purely on economics. If everyone is to be “covered”, then there isn’t enough money in the “system” to pay for it; when 30-35% goes to corporations to “run” the system. In addition, in the insurance model, cost controls (rationing) is based on the corporate bottom line and not on medical need or usefulness.

That is the bottom line, everything else is a distraction, not that the details aren’t important. The reason that every other industrialized country has some form of “single-payer” is based on the decision that their citizens have a right to health care and the simple economics to pay for that.

lol @😳

I hope someone can move this upstairs when a new post is put up.

good morning!Its another monday a long week ahead of 10 hour days! only 2 more weeks of it here in the sunshine state!

Okay, do I have this straight? Those a$$hat doctors forced her to remain in the hospital and under their treatment… and the fetus died? Now that’s some instant karma. She should sue them for malpractice.

I don’t care what Pat says, I f*cking hate Barack Obama. And I think he richly deserves it.

Amen to that!

You got it straight, gxm17. I hope she sues too, at the very least. Can you imagine the trauma that she and her family went through?

And OMG, what a beautiful new gravatar! Color me in love!

Thanks madamab. He’s my grandson and he just turned 1 last week. Gotta love that smile.🙂

I was just telling my co-worker Samantha Burton’s story and he raised an interesting point: It’s the folks currently hell bent against “socialized” medicine who hypocritically want the government to interfere with a woman’s private medical decisions.

I can’t even imagine being in such a hellish situation as Ms. Burton was forced to suffer. It’s like something out of a horror movie. IMO it certainly rates as cruel and unusual punishment.

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Our 2016 Ticket!

Our girl is gonna shine

Busted: Glass ceiling

Compare the Candidates!

Hillary Clinton

    • 9years, First Lady of Arkansas

    •8 years, First Lady of the United States

    •8 years, U.S. Senator

    •4 years, U.S. Secretary of State

Donald Trump

    •At least 15 failed businesses

    •Owns casinos that have filed for
    bankruptcy no less than 4 times

    •0 years in public service


Looks like an old coot

HRC bumper sticker

Picture says it all

Schedule of Prez/Veep Debates

Prez debates: The debates will air from 9pm to 10:30pm ET (8pm – 9:30pm CT, 7pm – 8:30pm MT, 6pm – 7:30pm PT)
  • 1st Presidential debate: Sept. 26th Hofstra University
  • Vice-president debate: Oct. 4th Longwood University
  • 2nd Presidential debate: Oct. 9th Washington University
  • 3rd Presidential debate: Oct. 19th Univ. of Nevada Las Vegas

What happens when Trump speaks

Tell the moderators (right click the pic)

Sad truth

Yes you can!


The three topics to be discussed during the debate, held at Hofstra University in New York, will be:  
  • "America's Direction,"
  • "Achieving Prosperity,"
  • "Securing America,"
  The debate format calls for six 15-minute time segments, and each of the topics will take up two of the six time slots.